Universal Access To All Knowledge
Home Donate | Store | Blog | FAQ | Jobs | Volunteer Positions | Contact | Bios | Forums | Projects | Terms, Privacy, & Copyright
Search: Advanced Search
Anonymous User (login or join us)
Upload

Reply to this post | See parent post | Go Back
View Post [edit]

Poster: HektorT Date: Jan 26, 2011 4:07pm
Forum: feature_films Subject: Re: One-Eyed Jacks

more and more assumptions. To release a copy you must first have a source (you have also posted in this forum before that some pd films are not available because there are no prints available to copy). Getting a print from the Library of Congress is not possible. Not for me at least, and I have tried :-) I took a quick look at IMDB and the first VHS version was released by Paramount. If your information is correct, all the copies quickly followed.

The only reason i'm writing this is that i've been billed lawyer fees deep into 5 figures, frequently from top firms. But I've never even once got the kind of certainty from them that you give.

The key event for a "publishing" event for film is availability for distribution via a distributor. The memoir of one person verifies that the film was available for screening in some fashion before the final version. It does not in any way try to describe the scope of that distribution, not do we know if said person was even privy to such information.

If we changed places here and I were you, I would say, I find it hard to believe a production would base decisions on a focus group sample size of 1. And I would also say, exactly how does a company based in LA find a cinema in the hinterlands? Most likely, it goes to a distribution company it works closely with and says, "can you get this screened at a couple of cinemas that are representative of America". Then the distribution company adds it to its catalog as "available for screening" or something like that. Now for legal purposes it has been published. -- of course that is all pure speculation, but speculation is what is keeping this discussion going.

This post was modified by HektorT on 2011-01-27 00:04:59

This post was modified by HektorT on 2011-01-27 00:07:52

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffVideo-Cellar Date: Jan 26, 2011 6:43pm
Forum: feature_films Subject: Re: One-Eyed Jacks

Under the law at the time, even if they engage an external distributor to take the film out into the sticks to show it, the preview would be considered a "performance" and not a "publication".

To release a copy you must first have a source (you have also posted in this forum before that some pd films are not available because there are no prints available to copy). Getting a print from the Library of Congress is not possible. Not for me at least, and I have tried :-) I took a quick look at IMDB and the first VHS version was released by Paramount. If your information is correct, all the copies quickly followed.

The argument just doesn't ring true, again. This film was distributed by Paramount to network and later cable TV very widely in the late 1960s, 70s and 80s. It was even theatrically re-released a number of times. I can find network TV listings for just about every year from 1966 onwards. Other films that were considered PD that had had similar TV exposure, "Charade" for example, had very early PD video releases and it was not until a decade later that an "official" version was released. I have even seen evidence of 80s PD releases of movies that were clearly taped off cable. "One-Eyed Jacks" did not disappear in 1961 only to reappear on video 30 years later.

As a side note, if most pan and scan VHS and DVD transfers were derived from the Paramount/CIC Video master from 1990, they would probably violate any copyright Paramount had in its master as in the case of the MPI vs UAV action. DVDs mastered from Para's mid 90s LD would not be subject to this technicality.

It is clear that Paramount is not greatly interested in utilising their rights in the film. That might make it a type of orphaned work. But the film is not free from all copyright protection.

This post was modified by Video-Cellar on 2011-01-27 02:43:26

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: HektorT Date: Jan 27, 2011 6:09am
Forum: feature_films Subject: Re: One-Eyed Jacks

Truly Amazing.

>>Under the law at the time, even if they engage an external distributor to take the film out into the sticks to show it, the preview would be considered a "performance" and not a "publication".<<

American Vitagraph Inc, vs Levy, 659 F.2d (9th Cir. 1981) ruled that films were published for copyright purposes when copies were placed in exchanges for distribution to theater operators. If you can show that the screener for this was not then you have only shown that this potential source of a print without a notice is not a factor. But i don't think you can even show that.


>>Other films that were considered PD that had had similar TV exposure, "Charade" for example, had very early PD video releases and it was not until a decade later that an "official" version was released. I have even seen evidence of 80s PD releases of movies that were clearly taped off cable. "One-Eyed Jacks" did not disappear in 1961 only to reappear on video 30 years later.<<

>>It is clear that Paramount is not greatly interested in utilising their rights in the film. That might make it a type of orphaned work. But the film is not free from all copyright protection.<<

More assumptions. Additionally, an orphan work is a work for which the copyright holder cannot be found. The fact that "VideoCellar" has decided this work is protected by US Copyright and should be defended based on the fact that it does not conform with the history of other PD films means nothing as far as the status of the film is concerned.
Opinions have no place in determining the legal status of a copyrighted work.

No more time for this.

This post was modified by HektorT on 2011-01-27 14:09:13

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffVideo-Cellar Date: Jan 27, 2011 7:09am
Forum: feature_films Subject: Re: One-Eyed Jacks

Truly Amazing.

>>Under the law at the time, even if they engage an external distributor to take the film out into the sticks to show it, the preview would be considered a "performance" and not a "publication".<<

American Vitagraph Inc, vs Levy, 659 F.2d (9th Cir. 1981) ruled that films were published for copyright purposes when copies were placed in exchanges for distribution to theater operators. If you can show that the screener for this was not then you have only shown that this potential source of a print without a notice is not a factor. But i don't think you can even show that.


Previews like this were always done roadshow style and were NEVER the product of handing over distribution to a film exchange. How often have you heard of an EXHIBITOR organising a test screening or preview of a film in 1960. This sort of preview was always organised by studio staff, usually the press and promotions people, who transported the print and the survey cards to the theatre, handed the print over to the projectionist and the cards to the audience and collected them afterwards. They screening would not have been advertised. They simply would have commandeered that evenings crowd after the program had played.

Do you know anything about film pre-distribution of the time? This was Paramounts practice at the time. I don't see any reason why they would have deviated from it and got in a film exchange to organise a preview screening.

I have presented evidence that this film was not treated as PD until the 1990s
- Multiple print sources all have copyright notices.
- The copyright registration containing a verified copyright notice
- That its many network showings were on CBS stations (affiliated with Paramount's Television Distribution arm since the 60s).
- There were no unauthorised video releases until 1991, which is after the renewal date.

For the lack of complete public domain (or free from any copyright) status of the film I presented:
- A copyright renewal registration for the film that may or may not be valid, nobody can prove that David R Baer was not the Person With a (documented) History that the renewal claims he was.
- Copyright renwals for the underlying musical scores and literary source.

I have said that the work is not "free from copyright", that the work may be covered by copyright if the renewal is valid and, if the renewal is invalid, the copyright owners would have avenues to control the works distribution based on their underlying rights.

What you have offered us as proof of release without notice:
- A reference to a website that claims it is PD due to ommission of notice while housing a video that CONTAINS A NOTICE.
- The word of reputable PD distributers who, lo and behold, sell copies THAT CONTAIN THE SAME COPYRIGHT NOTICE.
- Stephen Fishman's wise observation that some claimants put notices on after the fact.

Who was it again who was making assumptions?

Additionally, an orphan work is a work for which the copyright holder cannot be found

...or determined. We could not really be sure who would own the copyright. Is it Paramount, its musical publishing arm, the author of the novel, David R Baer or whichever successor-in-interest might exist for Brando's company "Pennebaker, Inc." if some rights reversion was in place?

Maybe we should just call it an abandoned work.

Thanks for your effort, but I don't think anyone can say irrefutably that this film either is or is not in the public domain. The copyright renewals are not definitive in themselves and it can not be definitively proved that the film was published without a notice.

Terms of Use (10 Mar 2001)